Hi, i just read about your organisation, and i am enticed to join, i just have somenthing to ask which i haven't managed to find in your policies.

What is your stance towards 'victimless crimes', such as drug legalization (and i mean ALL drugs), prostitution, and everything falling into the category of the fourth article presented by the French Declaration of 1789?
''Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has only those borders which assure other members of the society the enjoyment of these same rights.''

Hi 'blackness'!

First of all, let me say that while all IFLRY's member organizations define themselves as liberal, there are still quite some divergent opinions with regards to (particularly) the issues you bring up.

In general, I think it should first be admitted that these are not exactly the 'victimless' or innocent acts as you state. People on (hard) drugs are much more inclined to commit crimes against other people, which could be one of the reasons for banning (hard) drugs as it increases the level of fear in society. Also, people on drugs run more often into health problems, putting an extra burden on the public health sector in many countries and thus penalizing tax payers. Finally, it is always a difficult moral question how 'free' the drug user actually is when he/she has got addicted...

With regards to prostitution, the enormous amount of trafficking taking place in order to cope with the demand (either legal or not) raises concerns about the rights of those women...

I agree that there are good reasons for the liberalization of particular issues (at least soft drugs legalization), but it is too easy to consider them as only being harmful for the utilizer. Moreover, many of us will believe that certain preventive measures may sometimes be preferable to repressive-only measures...

Any thoughts?
 

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"Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
but to be young was very heaven!"
William Wordsworth, 1789

sorry buddy, thers no such thing as a victimless crime

smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol are legal but are acts of slow suicide as they diminish the users life expectancy (albeit slowly)

drugs (hard and soft) have to be illegal and banned - apart from inducing various states of psychoses they also induce anti-social behaviour - which in turn affects the rights of other people

 
liberal does not mean - do what you want - liberal means that you have decided that protecting the rights and freedoms and respecting and upholding the obligations of people in this smelting pot of this world - is paramount and is something worth believing in and working towards

if u ever suggest that prostitution is a victimless crime - you have never looked into the eyes of a sex worker over a cup of coffee and asked, " do u enjoy your job" - lets not even start with the issues of enforced prostitution... liberty means the right to job satisfaction

i get the impression that you are asking these things from a conservative perspective - trying to prove that liberals are anarchists - we arent - we believe in the rule of law and the preservation of the human rights of individual people

 

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Avishkar Govender

eThekwini-Durban
KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa
SADC - AU

Quite on the contrary, i am an anarchist myself, and i believe, that if an adult person wants to harm himself, he has every right, constitutional even, to do so. Nobody, and especially not the government, has the right to tell you what you can or can't put in your own body, after all, you OWN your own body, and should have the right to do whatever you'd like with it.

Same goes for prostitution, provided it's not a form of human slavery, everyone should have a right to sell their body for money, however, they should also have the right and chance for a normal job, which would be enough for a living, so that they're not forced into prostitution just because they can't feed themselves.

Also, anarchism isn't a state without law or human rights. Such a state would be anomie. Maybe you should do a little reading on anarchism before you dismiss it so quickly.

And then again, there is the fact that banning drugs doesn't do apsolutely anything in stopping them, it just promotes real crime and underground networking. I also have to add, that a significant part of scheduled drugs are completely safe and non-damaging, as well as non-addicting.

Liberty is, essentially, freedom.

By banning these things you take out the very meaning of it.

Under such circumstance your statement ''we believe in the rule of law and the preservation of the human rights of individual people'' seems quite funny, hypocritical even.

i have never dismissed anarchy in any form - i dismiss your position as not being liberal - because liberalism believes in the right to life - and anything suicidal or self destructive (including euthenasia) falls foul of that. and there isnt a single person in the world who is a prostitute who would not rather be something else. if by banning drugs u mean removing the need and thus demand for them. destroying the production of them and waging war against every single drug dealer... i think u will have solved the drug problem. in any event there is no such thing as a victimless crime cos even if the only victim is the person committing the crime - that self destructive type of behaviour is classified as a psychiatric disorder and therefore since society removes the freedom of choice (among other things) from people who are a danger to themselves - the notion that people should be free to take drugs or engage in prostitution - is certainly not liberal - because the liberal value of the right to life and the preservation of life takes precedence - just like with abortion... medics say that a there is a point during the 9 month pregnancy when a baby becomes a "person" and thus has a right to life - however since we are all cellular organisms and since we have all evolved from single celled ancestors, it is ridiculous to deny the right to life to a fertilized ovum... as at the point of conception... but thats only if you want to be pernickity about the liberal issue of the right to life. i agree that anarchism is an ideal - however bear in mind that no person is a product unto themselves - that is that no one is self created - and just as you have the right to property over the products of your creativity - you also have the right to property over your DNA as propagated... so in essence you dont own your self - your parents own you... and in our culture we say that a "person is a person because of people" that is that you are a product of your family/community/society/environment... and since learning (nurture) is an exogenous influence which shapes your conscious rationality... this seems to make sense... i urge you to seek counselling if you are considering taking your own life or feeling self destructive in any way - if your life is tough - call me - come to south africa come work with me here - i swear it will be a fun adventure. nothing is ever as bad as it seems and we do have so much to live for. its good to meet people who have such power of thought. well met mate - may peace be your journey. :-)

 

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Avishkar Govender

eThekwini-Durban
KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa
SADC - AU